Brandon (from Phoenix, Arizona) called The Atheist Experience on June 17, 2018. His call is introduced with these words:
Brandon wants to present evidence of god and guarantees this will be the best show ever if his call is taken this time.
The original video runs for 19 minutes, but this clip starts at the 13'46" mark.
Original video here:
Here is the gist of what was said.
My comments in red
My comments in red
(A full transcript appears at the bottom of this post.)
Atheist: Could god reveal himself to me right now if he wanted to?
Christian: He already has.
Atheist: Not to me he hasn't.Standard Christian ploy. Pretend that whatever the atheist thinks hasn't happened has, in fact, actually happened. With a bit of luck the atheist might assume he has made a mistake and thus lose confidence in his discussion with the Christian.
Christian: Well he's not going to physically reveal himself to you.
Atheist: Why not?Standard Christian ploy. Pretend that the atheist is asking too much. Pretend that god is so busy and so important that he simply cannot be wasting his valuable time providing revelations to insignificant atheists just because they ask for it.
Christian: Because of our nature...
Atheist: Can he reveal himself to me or not?Standard Christian ploy. Pretend that mere humans are miserable sinners who deserve nothing but contempt from the Lord God Almighty and therefore it is the height of pretension to ask him to reveal himself.
Christian: Not without destroying you.
Atheist: But he revealed himself to Paul on the Damascus Road.This is the first time that the Christian has not used a "standard Christian ploy". This time the Christian is making stuff up as he goes along. This time the Christian is (pathetically so, in my opinion) attempting to frighten the atheist into silence regarding the question of revelation. This time the Christian is effectively saying, "God could reveal himself to you but it could be dangerous - you could be destroyed - so maybe you should just shut up about it."
Christian: Absolutely.
Atheist: And it didn't destroy him did it?The Christian has probably already guessed where this is leading, but right now, for the first time, he has the chance to put on a display of confidence with a very positive response: "Absolutely."
Christian: That's because Paul was a "chosen vessel"; an apostle.
Atheist: You just made that up.Here the Christian is simultaneously inventing an excuse while attempting to belittle the atheist. The Christian is implying that Saint Paul was an apostle chosen by the Lord God Almighty, while the 21st atheist is nothing more than a piece of human excrement who simply does not deserve a revelation.
Christian: Errrm...Atheist: Can god make me a "chosen vessel".
Christian: Of course.
Atheist: Why hasn't he?The Christian has probably already guessed where this is leading, but right now, for the second time, he has the chance to put on a display of confidence with a very positive response: "Of course."
Christian: I think he has...
Atheist: So that means he CAN reveal himself to me.Standard Christian ploy. The atheist is making it clear that god has not revealed himself and the Christian simply calls the atheist a liar! "You say god hasn't revealed himself to you, but I think he has."
Christian: Yes, sure, of course.
Atheist: And yet he hasn't.The Christian has probably already guessed where this is leading, but right now, for the third time, he has the chance to put on a display of confidence with a very positive response: "Yes, sure, of course."
Christian: You have be an apostle - and those days are over.
Atheist: Do you have to be an apostle before you get revelation?Here the Christian is implying that the atheist is asking too much. Sure, back in the old days god could pop up at any old time and reveal himself to anyone he pleased - but not any more; those days are over.
Christian: No.Atheist: You just said I DID have to be an apostle.
Christian: Errrm...
Atheist: What if god made me his "chosen vessel" and revealed himself to me. Perhaps I might become an apostle?From this point onwards the Christian finds himself completely out of his depth and he begins to flounder. It fact his floundering becomes so obvious that there is no need for me to continue commenting...
Christian: No. Those days are over. There won't be any more apostles...Atheist: So god CAN'T reveal himself to me because I can't become an apostle?
Christian: Well no, he has revealed himself...Atheist: Not he hasn't. God has not revealed himself to me. Period. Full stop.
Christian: He has revealed himself but you just don't see it yet.Atheist: How can it be possible that something has been revealed to you and yet you don't see it? The process of revelation intrinsically includes the recognition of the observer.
Christian: Well I mean; have you ever lost your glasses or something and they're just sitting right in front of your fa.....
At that point the atheist hit the mute button
and the Christian was cut off.
Here is the full transcript:
Brandon and Matt Dillahunty talk over the top of each other on multiple occasions and some of their words cannot be clearly understood. For that reason I have not been able to include everything in the following transcript. I can assure you, however, that nothing has been taken out of context.
Brandon: If god is god then he's capable of speaking any language that he wants to.
Brandon: He has. This is the point...Matt: Sure. Isn't he also capable of revealing himself to all of us right now?
Matt: No he hasn't. God has never revealed himself to me. I can say that with confidence.Brandon: Well he's not going to physically reveal himself to you...
Matt: Why not? Can he not do that?
Brandon: Because of our nature...
Matt: Can he do that? Can he do it or not?Brandon: Without destroying you, no.
Matt: Well how did he reveal himself to anybody else ... Explain the Damascus experience. Isn't that a revelation directly to Saul?Brandon: Absolutely...
Matt: And it didn't destroy him did it?
Brandon and Matt talk over the
top of each other and then:
Brandon: Saul was a chosen vessel and apostles had a specific...
Matt: Oh My God! You're just making up excuses. I said, 'Can god do this?' and you said, 'Not without destroying you.'
And then I pull up an example - which you have to believe because it's in your book - that god revealed himself to somebody (i.e. Saul) without destroying him!
And now you come up with a post hoc rationalization; 'that he was a "chosen vessel".
Can god make me a "chosen vessel"?Brandon: Of course...
Matt: Why hasn't he?Brandon: I think he has...
Matt: Now you've just said that you think god has made me a "chosen vessel".
But you said god couldn't reveal himself without destroying me - and then - when I asked what it would take, you said I would have to be a "chosen vessel".
So if I'm a "chosen vessel" then clearly god can reveal himself to me without destroying me, right?
So the answer to my original question was, 'Yes he can.'Brandon: Yes, sure, of course.
Matt: And yet he hasn't.Brandon: If you were to be an apostle which their job is; their function has already been served; it's done.
Matt: So apostles have to believe before the revelation?Brandon: No...
Brandon continues talking over the top
of Matt until Matt shouts, SHUT UP!
Matt: Brandon you're not following this:
You said I'm a vessel.
And that god can reveal himself to me.
And when I say 'why hasn't he?'
You say it's because I'm not an apostle.
And I'm asking, 'do you have to be an apostle before you get revelation?'
And your answer is 'No.'
So it's irrelevant to why I haven't received the revelation yet.
Don't you think that if god chooses me as a vessel and reveals himself to me, then perhaps I might become an apostle?Brandon: Well no, because, I mean the apostleship is already done. There won't be any more apostles...
Matt: So then god can't reveal himself to me because I can't become an apostle, right?Brandon: Well, no, no, no. He has revealed; he has...
Matt: No he hasn't ... God has not revealed himself to me. Period. Full stop.Brandon: Well let me explain how he's done this except you just don't see it yet.
Matt: Oh my god! Brandon, Brandon, Brandon. How can it be possible that something has been revealed to you and yet you don't see it?
The process of revelation intrinsically includes the recognition of the observer.
This is something different from, 'Hey, there is evidence for something and you just haven't seen it yet,' versus 'I have revealed this evidence to you and you don't see it!'Brandon: Well I mean; have you ever lost your glasses or something and they're just sitting right in front of your fa.....
At that point Matt hit the mute button
and Brandon was cut off.
